Post SoA: 5 Color Control

yea i've seen a few deck lists with the monk over finks. he lives alot longer then finks if i dont have flame jav i have to 2 for 1 him which im sure anyone would take that.

Interesting analysis on fink vs. War Monk! I built a Bant Control deck fairly similiar but I didn't have the Tidings which I'm starting to see in more lists lately. Fae eh? It's a very solid choice. I like your version Ben.

I'm not sure if I have Chapin's latest list but the one I have has 4 Sprouting Thrinax in it and it pretty damn good! It has what appears to be a weird removal package but it works very well in a diverse meta.

Chapin 5 Color Control?

2 Cloudthresher
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Mulldrifter
1 Nucklavee
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Shriekmaw
4 Sprouting Thrinax

3 Bant Charm
2 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Cryptic Command
3 Esper Charm
1 Firespout
1 Pyroclasm
1 Makeshift Mannequin
2 Wrath of God

Manabase
Can't remember but it is nice
SB
? but should be easy to make

I did some limited testing and the Thrinax/Finks package allow enough subterfuge to lay down the Cruel smackdown. I also experimented with a couple of Liliana replacing 1 Makeshift and 1 Mulldrifter and it is also pretty good though I need way more testing. Anyway, if anyone has the complete new list then please post it or even the whole article.

Chapin's Cruel Control from 11/9/08:

1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Cloudthresher
4 Mulldrifter
1 Nucklavee

4 Condemn
4 Cryptic Command
4 Esper Charm
2 Negate
2 Remove Soul
2 Resounding Thunder
2 Jace Beleren
3 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Pyroclasm
2 Wrath Of God

1 Island
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Caves Of Koilos
3 Flooded Grove
1 Mystic Gate
4 Reflecting Pool
3 Sunken Ruins
4 Vivid Creek
3 Vivid Marsh
4 Vivid Meadow

Sideboard:
1 Broodmate Dragon
3 Cloudthresher
1 Plumeveil
3 Runed Halo
1 Negate
2 Remove Soul
2 Resounding Wave
1 Firespout
1 Wrath Of God

Man that's nothing like I thought! Looks uber powerful though! Thanks Ben!

Chapin's list is solid but it still is not favorable vs. Fae and Lark. RDW can give it trouble though he is right about no Finks. I would play his list if I knew I wasn't going to battle much Fae or Lark.

I want to try this, been messing around with teh numberz

4 Fulminator Mage
1 Nucklavee
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae//4/4 dragon dude, idk yet.
4 Mulldrifter

4 Cryptic Command
4 Esper Charm
3 remove soul

3 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Wrath of God
3 Violent Ultimatum
3 condemn

27 awesome lands

Finks sucks. I'd start with Chapin's list but whatev.

I second playing Chapin's list. Violent Ultimatum is okay but Resounding Thunder is better.

Actually.. i cut the finks and put fulminator mage instead. Maybe I can just disrupt until i can blow up 3 more fuckin lands. I want to try it out at least

Resounding Wave is the "tech" according to Chapin because you can bounce vivids in the mirror. Pyroclasm sucks but is totally necessary for game 1 because you can blow FOD and Stigm lasher not to mention random Realm Razer starts. You will likely side it out often but oh well!

I've played about five matches with this:

// Lands
1 Cascade Bluffs
3 Flooded Grove
1 Island
2 Mystic Gate
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Sunken Ruins
4 Vivid Creek
4 Vivid Meadow
1 Underground River
3 Vivid Marsh
1 Shivan Reef
1 Battlefield Forge

// Creatures
2 Cloudthresher
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Broodmate Dragon
4 Rhox War Monk

// Spells
3 Condemn
3 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Cryptic Command
4 Esper Charm
2 Negate
2 Remove Soul
4 Wrath of God
2 Pyroclasm
1 Oona's Grace

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Cloudthresher
SB: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 1 Broodmate Dragon
SB: 2 Negate
SB: 3 Runed Halo
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Plumeveil
SB: 2 Resounding Thunder

The manabase kind of sucks but I'm still trying to get a feel for what spells I like. Tidings, Fathom Trawl, Jace, and Mulldrifter just aren't doing it for me. Maybe I'll try Covenant of Minds, but that doesn't have any advantages over the others that I can see. War Monk has been more impressive than Finks.

Against anything that doesn't play counterspells it's not that tough to keep your head above water until you draw a Cruel Ultimatum. Broodmate is also sick in those matchups. I need another Remove Soul I think, for Lark and Faeries. Miser's Archmage has been nice, though most of this stuff isn't set in stone or anything. Plumeveil is hot against manlands. Honestly the 4th Wrath might be cuttable, but I want to play some more games against Kithkin before I feel okay about that.

It's possible that I'll just come out of this with a new desire to work on Jund. Thrinax and Jund Charm are still nice...you get to play a lot of nice cards without so many CIPT lands, so I dunno.

I would probably stick a little closer to Chapin's model...

1 Cascade Bluffs
3 Flooded Grove
1 Island
2 Mystic Gate
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Sunken Ruins
4 Vivid Creek
4 Vivid Meadow
1 Underground River (Yavimaya Coast?)
3 Vivid Marsh (-1 Marsh, +1 Grove?)
1 Shivan Reef
1 Battlefield Forge

// Creatures
1 Cloudthresher
1 Broodmate Dragon
3 Mulldrifter
4 Rhox War Monk

// Spells
3 Condemn (could possibly go 2 and add the third remove soul)
2 Cruel Ultimatum (the reason Chapin had 3 was because he had no Finks)
4 Cryptic Command
4 Esper Charm
1 Fathom Trawl (I like this better than Tidings as discussed)
2 Negate
2 Remove Soul
2 Wrath of God (I think you can follow Chapin's removal strategy because you have Monks)
2 Pyroclasm

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Cloudthresher
SB: 1 Broodmate Dragon
SB: 2 Negate
SB: 1 Remove Soul
SB: 3 Runed Halo
SB: 1 Plumeveil
SB: 2 Resounding Thunder
SB: 2 Wrath of God

Side note: I've been working on strategies to beat Realm Razer and decks that use a good amount of Planeswalkers. I've actually take out Cryptic Command vs. them for more sweepers and cheap counters along with Plumeveil to hold down the fort until I can recover. The matchup can still be rough but it's just a matter of adapting.

Do you actually like Mulldrifter or Fathom Trawl? I haven't missed them. I'd rather just have some more action spells in my list, or cheap counterspells to force my other spells through.

Archmage and Negate are good against planeswalkers. I don't think Thunder actually kills much besides Jace. Oblivion Ring could be an option, but it's kinda sketchy I think.

I'm pretty sure the second Negate is the card that should be cut for the 3rd Remove Soul.

I'm thinking some more about a Jund-centric version. I think you could support 4 Thrinax and 3-4 Jund Charms if you played some Graven Cairns and like, 1-2 Twilight Mire and Fire-Lit Thicket. Then you have to play a good number of blue filters (Groves, probably) so you can actually cast Cryptic, but I think it might be possible.

Chapin has been dropping hints about playing more Cloudthreshers maindeck, so I think I want 2 for now.

Archmage and Negate are my two biggest problems playing my deck with six planewalkers. With Thunder and Oblivion Ring, I still get to activate the planeswalker at least once, which is all I usually expect anyway.

Here are a couple of tweaks I've made...

1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Cloudthresher
3 Mulldrifter
1 Nucklavee

4 Condemn
4 Cryptic Command
4 Esper Charm
1 Negate
2 Remove Soul
2 Resounding Thunder
2 Jace Beleren
3 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Oona's Grace
2 Pyroclasm
2 Wrath Of God

1 Island
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Caves Of Koilos
3 Flooded Grove
1 Mystic Gate
4 Reflecting Pool
3 Sunken Ruins
4 Vivid Creek
3 Vivid Marsh
4 Vivid Meadow

Sideboard:
1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Cloudthresher
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Plumeveil
3 Runed Halo
1 Negate
2 Remove Soul
2 Resounding Wave (sub these out for 2 more Firespout if no mirror mu's)
1 Firespout
1 Wrath Of God

Ben, how about this as a skeleton?

5cc Jund Control

1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Cloudthresher
1 Glen Elendra Archmage (could go 2 and -1 Ultimatum?... probably the call)
1 Nucklavee
4 Sprouting Thrinax

3 Condemn
4 Cruel Ultimatum (I thought... why the fuck not?! Also, if you happened to get lashed you can Cruel 'em to death. Or what about 1 miser's Liliana? SB?)
4 Cryptic Command
4 Esper Charm
3 Jund Charm
2 Negate
1 Oona's Grace (I really miss this!)
2 Remove Soul
2 Wrath of God

Mana Base: ??? Probably not good and I need more land...
1 Battlefield forge
2 Crumbling Necropolis
3 Cascade Bluffs
3 Flooded Grove
1 Island
1 Shivan Reef
3 Sunken Ruins
2 Vivid Crag
4 Vivid Creek
2 Vivid Grove
2 Vivid Meadow

SB:
1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Cloudthresher
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Jund Charm
1 Negate
2 Remove Soul
3 Runed Halo
1 Wrath of God
3? Liliana Vess?

I think you want all Vivids still. I dislike many of your spells. I think you need some BR and either BG or RG filters. I'm not sure about Liliana, I might try it though. I don't think Resounding Wave is the best way to approach the mirror anyway. I'd rather board up to 4 Negates, or play some Tidings or Fathom Trawls.

Jund-centric 5cc, first draft:

2 Graven Cairns
1 Underground River
1 Shivan Reef
1 Yavimaya Coast
2 Twilight Mire
3 Vivid Marsh
4 Vivid Grove
3 Flooded Grove
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Vivid Creek
1 Fire-Lit Thicket

2 Cloudthresher
2 Broodmate Dragon
4 Sprouting Thrinax
4 Chameleon Colossus
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

2 Eyeblight's Ending
2 Remove Soul
4 Jund Charm
4 Fertile Ground
4 Cryptic Command
3 Cruel Ultimatum

SB: 1 Eyeblight's Ending
SB: 4 Negate
SB: 2 Necrogenesis
SB: 3 Condemn
SB: 1 Remove Soul
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 2 Cloudthresher

I might try this out soon...

1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Cloudthresher
3 Mulldrifter (I'm finding that it is lame not to be able to return a critter after a Cruel)
1 Nucklavee
4 Sprouting Thrinax

2 Condemn
3 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Cryptic Command
4 Esper Charm
3 Jund Charm
1 Negate
1 Oona's Grace
3 Remove Soul
2 Resounding Thunder
2 Wrath of God

1 Island
1 Battlefield Forge
2 Cascade Bluffs
3 Flooded Grove
1 Mystic Gate
4 Reflecting Pool
1 Shivan Reef
2 Sunken Ruins
4 Vivid Creek
3 Vivid Marsh
4 Vivid Meadow

SB:
3 Cloudthresher
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Jund Charm
1 Negate
2 Plumeveil
1 Remove Soul
3 Runed Halo
2 Wrath of God