Re: Post SoA: 5 Color Control

Solomon Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:04 pm

I wonder if mana ramping is necessary when these decks are packing 26-27 land. I can understand Mindstone in Gerry's deck that packs 4 Wrath md but I don't think Stone is needed in a version like mine. But like I said to GerryT, "I'm the guy who has 1 Cruel Ultimatum in my deck." Oh wait, or was it Chapin? Oh yeah, he packs 2! j/k Razz

I can see the value of Mindstone because you use it early to ramp and sac it to replace itself but I wonder if it takes away some spots for cards that might make a bigger impact.

5 Color Control

4 Kitchen Finks
4 Mulldrifter
1 Nucklavee
1 River Kelpie
2 Shriekmaw

3 Bant Charm
1 Call the Skybreaker
4 Cryptic Command
3 Esper Charm
3 Firespout
2 Makeshift Mannequin
2 Oona's Grace
3 Remove Soul
2 Wrath of God

2 Island
1 Cascade Bluffs
2 Flooded Grove
4 Mystic Gate
4 Reflecting Pool
1 Sunken Ruins
2 Yavimaya Coast
4 Vivid Creek
2 Vivid Marsh
4 Vivid Meadow

SB:
1 Bant Charm
1 Esper Charm
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Mistmeadow Witch(oh, c'mon! I played against a Solar Flare deck at the last PTQ with this in the SB and it was sick with Archmage and Drifter!)
2 Negate
4 Runed Halo
2 Wispmare
2 Wrath of God

*Don't pull punches with me guys! Sometimes I need to get my ass kicked.

aceben3 Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:21 pm

Witch is too clunky and fragile. The reason I want to jam a bunch of signets into the deck is so
a.) I can start casting my powerful spells before my opponent, and
b.) I can start casting my powerful spells and defending them before my opponent can stop me
I think I've decided that Fertile Ground is better than Rampant Growth.

Solomon Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:21 pm

Agree with the Witch of course. Fertile ground would require more of a green manabase, which would be okay I guess. I don't know if I like tapping to play 3cc signets. What do I take out? confused

Solomon Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:16 pm

Here is my newest iteration based on my 5-1 performance last night... By the way, I played like dog shit!

5 Color Quicktrip Control

4 Kitchen Finks
4 Mulldrifter
2 River Kelpie
2 Shriekmaw

4 Bant Charm (damn these are good!)
2 Broken Ambitions(needed a couple more counters)
1 Call the Skybreaker (games lasted forever and Big Will was complaining it took too long to win Razz

)
4 Cryptic Command
3 Firespout
1 Makeshift Mannequin
2 Oona's Grace
3 Remove Soul
2 Wrath of God

1 Cascade Bluffs
2 Flooded Grove
3 Island
2 Mystic Gates
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Sunken Ruins
4 Vivid Creek
3 Vivid Marsh
3 Vivid Meadow
2 Yavimaya Coast

SB:
3 Esper Charm
1 Firespout
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Negate
2 Runed Halo
2 Wispmare
2 Wrath of God

SilkyJohnson Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:55 pm

I'm surprised that nobody is playing jund charm anywhere... instant speed pyroclasm and grave yard hate incase somebody decides to play reveillark sometime.

GerryT Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:09 pm

Well you should focus on what's important. That means playing Firespout because three toughness creatures exist, and not playing cards like Jund Charm "because somebody might play Reveillark sometimes."

Solomon Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:15 am

I've been messing with Story Circle and I have to agree that it shuts down red and is effective vs. Kithkin as long as you keep Wispmare off the board. I'm currently developing a deck that supports Circle, 4 Wrath and will incorporate either 2 Runed Halo md or 4 Halo in the sb. I'm also attempting to give the deck teeth so it can find the end game a little faster. I haven't played Oona Queen in awhile and I think she may be what is needed to end the game fast. I'm messing with a singleton copy of Call the Skybreaker as well but it doesn't always bring my opponent to scoop phase like an active Oona Queen. Thoughts?

@GerryT-What do you think about -1 Mulldrifter, +1 Call the Skybreaker for your build? I think it would help to close games.

aceben3 Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:12 pm

Is there a strategic advantage to closing games quickly? Are you worried about getting burned out or something? If you're just adding a finisher so you won't take intentional draws, your best option is probably just to practice with the deck more and work on playing faster.

Solomon Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:41 pm

True enough.

tulsatrey Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:03 pm

aceben3 wrote:work on playing faster.

I think he's calling you slow, Jesse.

aceben3 Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:02 pm

You have to play FAST sometimes to finish three games with 5cc in time. That takes a ton of practice. I remember trying to finish three games with Guile. It wasn't pretty at first, and that deck had a much better clock that 5cc.

Solomon Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:17 am

That is my goal and part of my evolution as a magic player. In the past, I've mainly played Aggro/Control decks such as Mannequin and TarmoRack. Although they are not the easiest to play correctly, they still don't match the challenge of playing pure control. My goal is to play fast like Cheon and with mental acuity. When I'm able to play control on control mu's fast and effectively, then I'll be able to play any deck vs. anyone anytime armed with formidable weapons.

Solomon Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:27 pm

I've been thinking of Gerry's build and I'm considering taking it to States this year. The thing I don't like about the list are the Mind Stones. I know you guys are going to disagree with me on this but I just don't think they are necessary. I would much rather fill the 4 slots with negate and/or Broken Ambitions to better the counter wall or even add 1 more Circle since they are incredible. The last change I'm considering is taking out 2 Vivid Creeks for 2 more Arcane Asylum to allow me to use Circle more effectively especially in the late game which this deck will get to most of the time. I maybe wrong about this but it seems the deck is meant to win a long game 1, similiar to Mono White Martyr contol a couple of years ago. The other thing I'm going to try that you will also disagree with is adding 2 Oona Queen and 2 Negate. I'll probably play it this coming Friday to get a feel. Lastly, I really need to play a ton of semi-mirror matches and Fae matches to really be prepared as I'm pretty sure that's what I'd face in Top 8.

3 Remove Soul
3 Esper Charm
2 Story Circle
4 Wrath of God
4 Cryptic Command
2 Negate
2 Firespout
2 Oona's Grace

2 River Kelpie
4 Mulldrifter
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Oona, Queen of the Fae

26 Land
4 Arcane Asylum
2 Vivid Creek
4 Vivid Meadow
4 Mystic Gate
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Adarkar Wastes
3 Island
3 Cascade Bluffs

Sideboard
2 Firespout
4 Runed Halo
3 Condemn
2 Wispmare
2 Mind Shatter
1 Story Circle
1 Esper Charm

*I saw Gerry's new list and I like it more than mine. It should whoop some serious ass.

Solomon Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:25 pm

I went 3-1-1 last FNM. I really need to learn how to play control because I decked myself twice!? Embarassed

I have a long way to go.

Solomon Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:16 pm

Here is my latest version...

4 Kitchen Finks
4 Mulldrifter
1 Nucklavee
2 Shriekmaw

3 Bant Charm
1 Call the Skybreaker
2 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Cryptic Command
4 Esper Charm
3 Firespout
1 Makeshift Mannequin
3 Remove Soul
2 Wrath of God

1 Cascade Bluffs
2 Flooded Grove
3 Island
2 Mystic Gate
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Sunken Ruins
4 Vivid Creek
1 Vivid Grove
2 Vivid Marsh
3 Vivid Meadow
2 Yavimaya Coast

SB:
2 Jace Beleren
2 Necrogenesis
3 Negate
3 Runed Halo
3 Wispmare
2 Wrath of God

aceben3 Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:36 pm

Why Necrogenesis?

Solomon Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:48 am

I had nothing to stop graveyard recursion. This along with Jace should shore some of the decks weaknesses: Reveillark and Planeswalkers, Jace in particular.

Solomon Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:47 am

I have a crazy idea... what about a one of Realm Razer in the sb for control mu's?

aceben3 Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:14 pm

I've played the Lark vs 5cc matchup several times over the last few days, and I don't really think Necrogenesis is what you're looking for. It might honestly be better to just board another Remove Soul or something. You can also use your own Jaces to fight theirs. Glen Elendra Archmage is pretty sick in the mirror, and while I'd be a little worried about getting it Sowered, they're likely boarding a couple of Sowers out, so it might be good. Cloudthresher has a good amount of utility against Lark as well, so it might be worth a second look. Last, Jund Charm, while somewhat difficult to cast, has a lot of utility in the matchup. Again, that doesn't mean you should play it, but it's an idea.

I still like Wrath way better than Firespout and would rather play 1 Mind Shatter main and just cut Cruel Ultimatum. I'd also rather board 3 Story Circles instead of 3 Runed Halos.

GerryT Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:09 pm

Play a Mistveil Plains.

aceben3 Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:13 pm

Expecting to have 2 Finks to activate it?

Solomon Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:34 am

That's pretty hot with md Story Circle and Halo's in the sb.

Solomon Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:14 am

I've been testing 3 md Resounding Thunder to combat those damn Realm Razor decks and they are working out well. They are pretty good vs. Fae and the mirror too.

aceben3 Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:23 pm

Yeah Chris Woltereck said they do a good job against planeswalkers.

aceben3 Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:57 am

GerryT's states deck for the Facebook world:

I have been playing this in eight mans and doing well enough.

4 Rhox War Monk
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Cloudthresher

3 Condemn
3 Remove Soul
1 Negate
1 Oona's Grace
2 Bant Charm
4 Esper Charm
2 Firespout
4 Cryptic Command
4 Wrath of God
3 Tidings

27 Land
3 Treetop Village
4 Vivid Creek
4 Vivid Meadow
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Flooded Grove
3 Mystic Gate
2 Shivan Reef
1 Underground River
2 Island

Sideboard
3 Mind Shatter
3 Negate
3 Wispmare
2 Firespout
1 Condemn
1 Remove Soul
1 Tidings
1 Cloudthresher

War Monks are an improvement over Finks. Whereas they are worse in the mirror, I believe they are better everywhere else. Against Kithkin/WW, they have first strikers and big guys that make Finks irrelevant. At least if they are attacking you with a 4/4 Figure, you can attack back with War Monk for some value.

Against Faeries, they are similar. Against RDW, they demand a Flame Javelin. Finks just aren't relevant anymore. They have wither guys, Magma Spray, and 4/4s. If Monk stays in play, it's hard for them to win.

I cut Mulldrifter. I had two and two Tidings, although that doesn't really make any sense. I like being able to do things on turn three, so I maybe go back to that route. You absolutely need to be able to use all of your mana every turn with decks like these.

Wrath of God hasn't been very good. I have yet to play against a WW deck and against RDW, I normally just use spot removal or Remove Souls on all their guys. Obviously I'm not going to cut it, but I'm considering it. Story Circle would be insane against some of these decks.

Treetops are solid. They give you something to do with all of your lands and can help you put a clock on Faeries.

The Oona is because I want a way to beat the mirror that doesn't lose to Wrath of God and Condemn.

The sideboard is pretty solid. I want the fourth Wispmare as the only way you really lose to Faeries is Bitterblossom. You obviously need four Negates post board, and Tidings and Mind Shatter are the best cards against other control decks.

The mana could be off, the sideboard could be off. I haven't really crunched any numbers like I usually do, I've just been trying to get some games in.

Faeries, Lark, RDW, and WW are also solid choices, if you swing that way.

His first comment after this note is:

After some battling, I might end up playing Fae. Don't judge me.

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