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UBw Teachings

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Post  aceben3 Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:13 am

8 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Urza's Factory
1 Tolaria West
3 Mystic Gate
3 Sunken Ruins
2 Underground River

3 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
1 Guile
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae

4 Cryptic Command
4 Rune Snag
3 Remove Soul
2 Mystical Teachings
2 Pact of Negation
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Sudden Death
1 Condemn
2 Terror
3 Damnation
2 Careful Consideration

SB:
1 Pact of Negation
2 Mind Shatter
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Teferi's Moat
1 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
2 Condemn
2 Sudden Death (kills Ashenmoor Gouger, is nice against Faeries)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Negate
1 Platinum Angel

I wanted to make a Teachings deck because I was bored. So I decided to try to make one that is relatively immune to Magus of the Moon. I don't actually think Walls and Finks are that great against red decks. You might miss them against Elves, but you can board in Teferi's Moat and Platinum Angel, which is often tough for them to kill, especially with Pact protection. The seemingly random selection of removal spells is necessary in my opinion due to the wide array of threats in the format.

Things to explore: Aeon Chronicler, Razormane Masticore, Shadowmage Infiltrator, Runed Halo (I'm not as excited about this card as I once was though), Draining Whelk, Tendrils of Corruption, Ancestral Visions (reworking the manabase), storage lands, Desert. Keep in mind the non-basic lands go against the premise of this experiment though.

Matchups:
Fae: you're on a Crovax+Pact/Teferi plan. You have no way to actually kill a Bitterblossom. You do have plenty of answers to Mistbind Clique, though. Be aware that your hand may get raped at any time, especially postboard. Oona is also a pretty good plan.
Red: Don't die, kill their guys, the usual. Moat is for the Elf matchup, but it might be worth bringing in here. I might try Halos if this matchup is still bad, but everyone has Everlasting Torment in their board nowadays and I don't want to have to one-up them by boarding in a Disenchant.
Elf: The biggest problem is that they can use manlands to get you post-Damnation, or if they just don't feel like casting spells. Also, most cards in their deck are threats. But you have a lot of removal maindeck and a good sideboard of Moat, Platinum Angel (awesome if they don't have Slaughter Pact), and more removal. Shouldn't be hard.
Lark: You have a lot of counterspells and get Mind Shatters, Faerie Macs, a Crypt, and a Negate. Seems good.
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Post  GerryT Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:08 am

Wow, this deck is bad. Smile

Firespout is way better than Damnation. Wall of Roots is still insane right now. Terror is usually worse than Slaughter Pact. Sudden Death is WAY worse than Runed Halo. You're not even playing Ancestral (and have way too few card drawers as is and dear god, way too much removal), so I don't see why you aren't playing something similar to QNT. Kenny Oberg ran Ancestral off (I think) eight turn one sources. You could probably do the same if you wanted to stick with this.

Teferi's Moat and Runed Halo on Demigod is basically the full lock against Mono Red. I've played against it six times on MODO in the last week and none of them had Torment. Some of them had Manabarbs though, so I don't think a Disenchant would be the worst thing ever. If you don't run the enchantments against RDW, I don't see how you ever plan on winning as you're basically kold to Demigod.

Crypt/Macabre instead of Extirpate? Huh?

Razormane is just worse than Moat against basically anything that you would board either of those in against. Tendrils is trash as most of the decks don't have very much reach.

Haunting Hymn should be about as good as Mind Shatter, mostly because its tutorable and you have acceleration.

Here's the list I've been running:

4 Wall of Roots
2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Nucklavee
1 Cloudthresher

4 Rune Snag
4 Cryptic Command
2 Runed Halo
4 Careful Consideration
2 Mystical Teachings
4 Firespout
2 Prismatic Lens
2 Pact of Negation
2 Slaughter Pact

4 Vivid Meadow
4 Vivid Creek
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Mystic Gate
3 Dreadship Reef
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Yavimaya Coast
1 Tolaria West
1 Urza’s Factory
1 Flooded Grove

Sideboard
3 Detritivore
2 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
2 Teferi’s Moat
2 Runed Halo
1 Fungal Reaches
1 Imp’s Mischief
1 Haunting Hymn
1 Extirpate
1 Guttural Response
1 Luminesce
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Post  aceben3 Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:35 pm

Is the Detritivore plan better than Shatter/Hymn? I realize those cards have to actually resolve, but I still think Shatter backed by Pact/Teferi is the most cripping thing you could do.

If you do think the Detritivore plan is that good, why not board a Pull From Eternity?

Imp's Mischief has never been the blowout I want it to be. Probably because they have more mana to defend their Visions after you pay 2 for Mischief.

I've been debating the merits of Guttural Response vs Negate, and I think I like Negate. I mean, 9 out of 10 Neil Reeveses agree, right?

There should be an Extirpate in my list somewhere.

I should probably mention that I didn't play a game with that list.
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Post  GerryT Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:19 pm

I think Vore is good, but not likely to be played by my opponents, hence the lack of a Pull.

Negate is better than Response in a vacuum, but not for what I want it to do. I'm trying to set up a critical turn here with either Hymn in a control mirror or with Crovax against Faeries where I am able to counter the majority of their spells cheaply. There are plenty of 2cc+ counters I could use. I use Response because its only one mana.

By your logic on Mischief, you should just give up on fighting their Ancestrals, which seems wrong. They don't ALWAYS have it, so quit living in fear. If you were on the play or even just had a ramp, you could fight them with Guttural Response or Pact with Teachings to find the missing pieces, or just use the Mischief to force out a counter and fight over Crovax on your turn.
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Post  aceben3 Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:31 am

I'd expect more 75-card mirrors now that you've written about it on SCG. Obviously, Pull can also handle Visions. I have to admit I didn't really think about the advantages of making them fight over their Visions. Losing the battle but winning the war or whatever.

What about Aeon Chronicler to board in against Faeries and the mirror? It's worse than Detritivore in the mirror but seems better against Faeries. If they board out removal (probably unlikely) or fail to draw enough of it, you can put them in the Abyss that way. And outside of resolving Crovax or Cloudthresher, I think that's the best way to fight through an active Bitterblossom.

How much worse are some number of Harmonizes instead of some number of Careful Considerations? I realize that you probably occasionally (maybe more than I think) play them at EOT or search them out with Teachings. But more often than not, I just mainphase them. In that scenario, sometimes it feels like I would rather just have the +1 card advantage instead of digging 1 card deeper. Not always, since many of your cards are blanks in certain matchups, but sometimes. Since it isn't TOO hard on the mana, is it be better to swap 2 Careful Cons for 2 Harmonizes? (I guess by the same line of reasoning, Foresee could be considered, but I think it's pretty inferior in a deck that wants to play a lot of lands before it wins)

I think you said in your article you wanted more ways to kill Teferi. Sudden Death? It may be too clunky but it does kill Gouger, like I said. I understand the plan is to put one Halo on Gouger, but if you can afford the space then the redundancy might help a little.

If you were going to have something to kill Everlasting Torment or Manabarbs, and ideally double up on Bitterblossom, Krosan Grip or Wispmare? Would you blindly board any enchantment removal in against a Red deck you knew nothing about?

I realize a lot of these ideas are kinda off the walls, and probably for a good reason, but since you have the $5k coming up I thought you might like some fresh ones. I still think there is some merit to a control deck with fewer colors, but maybe that deck is just Reveillark.
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Post  GerryT Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:13 am

The only people I expect to copy my list are either those who are in the know or the ringers who were probably playing 5cc anyways. The other people probably won't play it correctly, and I would play 75 card mirrors against those people all day.

Chronicler is going to be a big body if it resolves (the cards are basically irrelevant, as you probably won't get through their counterwall) so you're basically just all in on this big guy? I would rather cripple their lands so they can't cast any spells, or at least only one spell per turn, which you can easily counter. They should still keep Terror in to fight Teferi, Wall, Thresher, etc, so it probably won't even live.

I am fine with just having the second Slaughter Pact to kill Teferi with. If they move in on it when I'm tapped low, they probably don't have a counter or mana available. If they resolve it late game, I probably fucked up somewhere and can no longer win, so having access to Sudden Death probably isn't even relevant.

Harmonize is green when I have white Vivids and filters. Its basically uncastable, in addition to being worse because of the lack of utility. I eot Careful Consideration a LOT. You can Teachings for it (and almost never run out of them, whereas if you cast a couple in the mirror early, you don't have any card drawing to Teach for. Foresee was dogshit in block for the same reasons and it was EASIER to cast.

There have been a couple times where I wanted a Teachings-able answer to Gouger, but it never mattered. It was never life or death, just an annoyance.

I would run Wispmare, as its much better against red. I wouldn't board it in blindly until I knew most of the field had enchantments, therefore it doesn't deserve to be there yet.

EDIT: I do appreciate the ideas. Even though we think differently, we're both smart people with good ideas and I think I need someone from your mindset feeding me these ideas, otherwise there is probably stuff I would miss.
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Post  aceben3 Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:14 pm

"If they resolve it late game, I probably fucked up somewhere and can no longer win, so having access to Sudden Death probably isn't even relevant."
I totally understand this.

Glad I can help.
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Post  SilkyJohnson Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:56 am

This may seem like a dumb question, but why the prismatic lenses? I know they fix mana, but would mind stone not be just as good or possibly better due to the card drawing? I haven't played this deck (yet) but the mana base looks solid enough where it would seldomly need mana fixing.
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Post  aceben3 Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:26 am

Lens is better because it can let you fight through Magus of the Moon, and because you won't ALWAYS have perfect mana. Also, you'll rarely want to sac it to draw a card. This deck is insanely mana-hungry; Teachings plus flashback is ten mana, Factory is basically eight per turn. Also there's "the lock" of tapping their creatures with Cryptic and returning your Nucklavee every turn which costs ten mana if you do nothing else, which is not ideal.
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