Enduring Ideal

Here's an unorthodox list I've been testing, it seems like a good choice if there's a good amount of NLB, Burn/RDW, and Dredge:

4 Ancient Spring
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Geothermal Crevice
1 Plains
4 Sulfur Vent
4 Tinder Farm
1 Draco
4 Burning Wish
4 Chrome Mox
3 Enduring Ideal
1 Erratic Explosion
2 Form of the Dragon
1 Honden of Seeing Winds
4 Insidious Dreams
4 Magma Jet
4 Pentad Prism
1 Pernicious Deed (O-Ring or Take Poss?)
1 Reclaim
4 Seething Song
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Dovescape
SB: 2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 1 Enduring Ideal
SB: 1 Deathmark
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Decree of Silence
SB: 2 Cranial Extraction

The Death Cloud matchup can be really swingy but I still haven't seen that deck get too much press. Also, Doran is exactly what this deck doesn't want to face: discard plus fast aggro. But Insidious Dreams is amazing in that matchup. You can just go for Ideal or oftentimes steal games with Draco/Explosion. If anyone has tested Ideal or has any input, let me know. As of now, I like this for the next PTQ.

The basic Ideal build I've been using is almost effortless to play but is vulnerable to Doran.dec. It does beat the shit out of burn decks unless they have Molten Rain, but even then it is unfavorable for burn.

That list is very strange to me! No Orim's Chant? No Blossom? I'll have to test this one out to get the hang of it. If it is good, then we need to get our hands on some Chrome Mox, Draco, Solitary Confinement, Wish, etc.

A few notes on the wierdness:
-IMO, Orim's Chant is very weak because there aren't that many counterspells in the format, and i'm trying to delay a Duress for a turn I'd rather just throw some goodies on top of my deck with Insidious Dreams.
-Sensei's Divining Top is not in the deck because I'd rather just max out on Invasion sac lands (rather than fetches) and play Magma Jet, which helps scry, kill Gaddock Teeg and random aggro creatures, and get the opponent in Draco/Exposion range. Top is just nowhere near as good without fetchlands or shuffle effects, so I'd rather play the scry card. I definitely miss Top in some matchups, but I think the deck needs the added speed from the extra saclands. With this build, you can cast Ideal on turn 3 a decent % of the time. For example:
T1 sacland, T2 sacland, Mox, Prism, T3 Ideal
T1 sacland, T2 sacland, T3 Mine/Plains/Mox, Seething Song, Ideal
Or, T1 sacland, T2 sacland, Mox, Wish, T3 Seething Song, Ideal.
-Why no Lotus Bloom? I'll just give you Kuan-Kuan Tian's explanation from his Ideal primer (Part 1 and Part 2):

"The reason for (cutting Lotus Bloom) is simply due to the fact that Lotus Bloom isn't as good in Enduring Ideal as it is in other combo decks. In Balancing Tings for example, Lotus Bloom is great since you can play Balancing Act while the Bloom is still under suspend while in TEPS, the Lotus Bloom is great since it not only accelerates your mana by three but also adds one to your storm count. In Enduring Ideal, which does not abuse storm or suspended cards, the only purpose of the Lotus Bloom is to accelerate your mana by +3. While this is undoubtedly a nice boost, Invasion sac-lands produce only one less mana than Bloom and in general are more reliable. Tron players can't Repeal sac-lands in your upkeep; Chase-Rare-Control players can't counter your sac-lands with their Counterbalance or explode them with their Engineered Explosives. Invasion sac-lands are also immune to stuff like Ancient Grudge and Stifle and Orim's Chant and most of the time, the additional mana that Lotus Bloom produces is irrelevant anyway since the boost does not arrive until turn four at the earliest. By turn four, most Ideal players would have the ability to cast Enduring Ideal already with just their lands (play sac lands for the first three turns, play a Gemstone Mine on turn four) so the additional Bloom mana is often superfluous. A further advantage of building your mana base in such a way is that you will be playing more lands. This means that your draws will be slightly more consistent and you will end up taking less mulligans as well."

I'm sold, and I've found him to be right through testing.
-I considered Condescend actually. It seems a little hard to cast and probably a little situational. Also, it doesn't really help much against Doran, which as I said is probably the worst matchup. But it could be good against big Death Clouds or something.
-Re: the Sideboard, the Dredge package is obvious, taking out Magma Jets and Dovescapes I think. The Draco/Explosion package is actually often good against them if you have time, which you should postboard. Maybe that means the Magma Jets would still be helpful, I'm not sure. You get one Cranial Extraction against the mirror (name Dovescape) and Death Cloud (namesake), and one Decree of Silence if you anticipate them bringing in Kami of Ancient Law, etc (as people often do). I'm considering a Priveleged Position in that slot too. Take Possesion could also steal an opponent's Deed before they can ramp up enough to use it. Also, it's probably obvious that the 2 Boseiju are for NLB, but they are also good in the mirror against Dovescape, and theoretically against Chalice of the Void.

Whew. Digest.

I know this is a lot of info and i'm not sure if anyone will slog through all this, but:
-I thought about adding a 3rd Confinement MD and one Mikokoro, but Doran and RDW both play 4 MD LD spells (Molten Rain+Vindicate) so I don't think all-in on Mikokoro is very good.
-I guess Sterling Grove works better than Decree of Silence or Priveleged Position SB so I think I'll try that.
-Also, I guess you want to bring the Extraction(s?) in vs NLB since they have Global Ruin which owns you.
-God, I hope I don't play against Flow.

I've read his primer and after reading what you have to say I agree with the new list. Sterling grove seems like a good cheap answer. Yeah, flow would suck! Lets test this bitch! To the Gauntlet!

well what was a four page post now becomes something smaller.

the odds are against you to top 8 with this deck. period. i know testing is going well for you but tesing results only get ou to the tournament where people modify decks and prepare for off the wall matchups (culling scales much ya look it up). you have always said a cranial for form and you lose. so once again ext come down to a race. is the deck faster than you or do they disrupt you enough to kill you before you find your second answer. i think flores wrote about taking linear decks to ptq because of the sheer number of rounds you face and the greater the likelyhood that your deck will crap out on you the longer the tournament goes.

now i hate some of what flores says just look at the shit he has been posting lately!
but this makes sense. there is also something to be said about not interacting with your opponent. on the one hand it keeps you playing your own game with your opponent playing mostly on your terms and racing your inevitable clock. if they manage to stall you out long enough they win otherwise well you own domage. on the other hand you have teh saying that everytime you interact with your opponent is another chance to outplay them. now in retrospect you played a subpar version of deathcloud becasue you tried to do too much. adding blue became your downfall. you maximized your tiem spent interacting with your opponent and little time following your deck's main plan resolve a large deathcloud and win with a plainswalker. you played your opponents game not your own.

now you have switched to the opposite end of the spectrum. very little interactivity. granted being able to ingnore most of what your opponent does is great but you need to not have to react to what your opponent does at every turn. you play such a reactive game even after you go off that if they can trump your initial enchantment you fetch before you get a second or third you lose.

i think your deck is better that TEPS becuase of your abilty to not have a hand and win the game. i think less people will be prepared for your deck this week but if the deck continues to get publicity then you need to switch. the same applies to me. if combo keeps gettign popular then i need to find a new deck. it may not be as shiny but o well


end rant about a perfectly fine deck to take to a ptq

Bigwill

hmm ok a lot of points there. first, dredge has won more slots this season and (i think) put up more top 8's than any other deck. so really the whole concept of "linear decks are bad, derf" is, to me, obviously not true, even when there is a lot of hate aimed at them. of course, dredge is a stronger deck in the abstract than ideal, but that is fine, because as you say, people aren't really that prepared for ideal. there are still decks in the format, including what i consider the best two decks in the format, dredge and rdw, that are just kold to confinement+honden can't disrupt you at all (game 1) after you go off. really, there are no safe bets in magic. in extended, people will try to brutalize you in some way on turn 3 or 4 more often than not. the trick in magic, i believe, is to find some plan of attack that people were not prepared for. it doesn't have to be the strongest deck objectively. you need a strong linear plan, but also a plan against every deck that is faster than you, so that you can bring them down to your level (listen here boy...). of course, you probably intuitively know all of this. most of us played during skullclamp summer, and obviously affinity didn't always win. at times, due to the hate, it wasn't even the best deck choice. so keep an eye on the metagame and make your best guess. in summary, "metagame correctly, play well, and win."

i like what you had to say about my modifications last week; lesson learned, i hope. also, flores is shit. that's all.

Insidious Dreams is awful and slow. I was wrong. Getting the Draco/Explosion kill is not worth it. I'm 3-0 right now with this build in a M-L trial. It won a PTQ last weekend. I might try -1 Form of the Dragon +1 Solitary Confinement. Or I might just not touch it.

// Lands
1 [LRW] Plains (1)
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [IN] Tinder Farm
4 [IN] Sulfur Vent
1 [RAV] Sacred Foundry
4 [IN] Ancient Spring
1 [DIS] Hallowed Fountain
1 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [8E] City of Brass
2 [CHK] Boseiju, Who Shelters All

// Spells
4 [TSP] Lotus Bloom
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [FD] Pentad Prism
1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [9E] Seething Song
2 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
1 [CHK] Honden of Seeing Winds
2 [DIS] Dovescape
3 [9E] Form of the Dragon
3 [SOK] Enduring Ideal

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
SB: 1 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [8E] Boil
SB: 1 [SOK] Enduring Ideal

Edit: Oh yeah, I already went -1 Crypt +1 Deathmark SB from the original. I love me a Deathmark though, it already came in handy.

i need to start doings thos things

i'm not sure how bad envelop is in the sideboard since it counters molten rain, vindicate, ideal, thoughts of ruin, devastating dreams, dread return (maybe not well tho), thoughtseize, duress, cabal therapy, and more. i actually think it's hard to lose to aggro if you don't get your lands destroyed, so it might be the right solution.

LD seems to be the Achille's heal so anything that would help should be tested.

i even jokingly referred to teferi's response. go ahead, look it up.

hans mahler, the guy that qed with ideal in baltimore, made 3 awesome posts about ideal in the scg forums, you can find them here.

That Hans guy obviously knows what he's talking about! All his analysis seemed spot on and he has testing and a blue envelope to back it all up. I'm gonna print his posts to at least know what a great Ideal player is thinking.

Alright, the list of cards I need for next weekend is kind of like my cock... long... yet distinguished. Heres the list...

Pentad Prism x4
Lotus Bloom x1
Top x1
Form of the Dragon x1
Dovescape x2
Deed x1
Blue Hondon x1
Orims Chant x2 (I think Ben has an extra one of mine, so I might just need 1)
Seething Sond x3
Burning Wish x4 (someone else is borrowing mine right now)
Flooded Strand x2
Windswept Heath x2
Boseiju x2
Tinder Farm x2

SB
Boil x4
Leyline X4
Crypt x4
sterling grove x1


Lemme know if you can help a brotha out. This is the deck I want to take to Wichita.

"The John"

You've helped me a ton so I'll try to return the favor...

1 Top
1 Blue Honden
1 Form of the Dragon
3 Seething Song
2 Burning Wish(Chuck's) someone may already have them?
2 Windswept Heath(TJ's)
2 Boseiju(1 is Chuck's)
2 Tinder Farm
4 Pentad(I should have them)

The gods must be crazy:

4 Lotus Bloom
4 Pentad Prism
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dovescape
3 Form Of The Dragon
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Solitary Confinement
4 Fire / Ice
2 Orim's Chant
3 Seething Song
1 Honden Of Seeing Winds
4 Burning Wish
3 Enduring Ideal

1 Plains
4 Ancient Spring
1 City Of Brass
2 Flooded Strand
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Sulfur Vent
4 Tinder Farm
2 Windswept Heath
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Leyline Of The Void
1 Enduring Ideal
1 Pyroclasm
1 Thoughtseize

...wait for it...

1 Balancing Act
4 Greater Gargadon

This is still in joke stage at this point I guess but it makes me feel a little funny, maybe the way that Kyle Sanchez feels about Draco/Explosion...

HOLY CRAP this deck is the nuts, forget teps...

yeah i just balancing acted leaving me with a gargadon with 4 counters and each of us with no permanents and 1 card in hand...my opponent discarded double indrik stomphowler

Brew upcoming, raw list of playables:

Enduring Ideal

Seething Song
Pentad Prism
Lotus Bloom
Chrome Mox
random signets/Fellwar Stone

Form of the Dragon
Dovescape
Meishin, the Mind Cage
Decree of Silence
Phyrexian Arena
Faith's Fetters
Confiscate
Zur's Wierding
Ivory Mask

Telling Time
Ponder
Court Hussar
Peer Through Depths
Sleight of Hand

Mana Leak
Boseiju
Thoughtseize

Firespout
Elecrolyze

SB:
Firespout
Quagnoth
Bottled Cloister
Ignorant Bliss
Priveleged Position
Deathmark
Ghostly Prison
Genju of the Realm

Eh?

// Lands
1 Steam Vents
1 Godless Shrine
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Calciform Pools
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry

// Spells
1 Meishin, the Mind Cage
1 Firespout
2 Dovescape
4 Electrolyze
2 Form of the Dragon
1 Ivory Mask
4 Enduring Ideal
4 Telling Time
4 Ponder
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Pentad Prism

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 3 Firespout
SB: 4 Deathmark
SB: 2 Bottled Cloister
SB: 4 Thoughtseize

I just don't see how this will go off before Elves! I think the rotation hurt this too much. Hmm... what about Ghostly Prison? I don't know... it just needs more mana accel and disruption to get the combo online before Elves combos off and Zoo beats your face in.